#11: Final Round! > Polling Madness!

THREAD BEGAN: October 13th, 2004
On the eve of the 3rd Presidential Debate...

BOB: So the last debate is upon us.
Before it airs, tune in and let us know what you think it will look like. Test you ESP.
My bet: I think Bush will continue his strategy of raised volume and knee-slappin lumber jokes.
No seriously, I think that Bush is going to say the word 'nuisance' 13 times and mention Sept. 11th, 7 times. I think Kerry will dwell on the bad economic numbers as much as possible, mentioning Hoover 4 more times.
I hope Bush makes the mistake of picking on this 'nuisance' thing like he did the 'global test' thing as opposed to Kerry's senate record, which I think would be more damaging.

KYLE: Dear Friend, The final Presidential debate is upon us and the race for President is very close. With only 19 days left until the election, a lot is on the line tonight in Tempe, AZ. I think we all look forward to a spirited contest.
You can post your pre-debate thoughts now. A post debate survey and discussion board will follow tonights debate. I look forward to all of your comments.
Join our discussion and forward this to friends for the last few rounds of debate before the election. The Chief Source www.chiefsource.blogspot.com

JAY: honar, i feel compelled to rebut your statement, "afganistan was a disaster." here's the latest word from the u.n. "United Nations Congratulates Afghans on Impressive Election .... That this election was held without a major security incident is a tribute to the determination of the Afghan population." (http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/Archive/2004/Oct/12-753318.html). i don't think i need to elaborate on that. by the way, all of you who said an election coudn't occur w/out incident have been proven wrong. this illustrates the possibility that a smooth election can occur in iraq. there are many similarities. i know many of you want to see disaster, but i hope you'll all be proven wrong once again.
bob, in a recent e-mail, i asked you if you thought i was a conservative given my stances on certain issues. you did'nt respond and i don't care. however, i see your little survey on the blog and i'd like to be taken off the conservative poll and be placed in a new section labeled "Libertarian."
thank you

SAMMY: Well, I'd have to say I don't know who won the debate. So that means Bush will win with the public. Bush will win the election. Kerry just couldn't drive his messager home to the repulicans. He is obviously the right man for the job, but people just don't care about the economy I guess. Stem cell, abortion, education, deficits, jobs, gay marraige, and forriegn policy just does not out weigh the war. Even when Bush is doing a horrible job in the middle east (Iraq and Afganistan). So I guess the american people just want the country go to hell.
Here I challenge you republicans. Give me one reason why I should vote for Bush. Please one reason and you can have my vote. Exclude the war, because I am totally against it. Give me one simple reason why Bush is better than Kerry and I give you my vote. I see no reason as of yet, and I really don't see why you guys are voting for him.
Stem cell, abortion, and gay marraige are matters of opinion. So economy, worst economy in years. Education, bad, nobody can get a job as a teacher that i know, which brings us to jobs. Nobody can find one.
So tell me why anyone should vote fo Bush, to go deeper in debt, so the rich and poverty gap becomes bigger, so science can not be explored, so gays can't have tax breaks, so a woman is forced to have a kid she doesn't want. Huh, I just don't see why.
PLEASE TELL ME WHY!!!!
Well Bush again lies to american public, Yes He did say He doesn't know where Osama is and he really doesn't care. Shit it's on film, and every network is showing it. Could this finally show this the american public that Bush Lies To Us All. Probably not, becuase obviously have the public wants a liar to be in office, even if he is lying to americans. Fuck it. If you republicans can't see it, even educated ones like yourselves, I may as well poke my eyes out and join you blind fucking retards.

JAY: John, here are some reasons. First, look at what Kerry has done as a senator. I could explain his record again, but it seems a little redundant at this point. You may argue that “a resume does not reflect good judgment” as Edwards put it, but I think both you and I know that does not reflect the qualities necessary of strong leadership. Bush stands firm on his decisions, whereas I believe Kerry’s decisions are based on political appeal.
I'll paint you my picture of Kerry's economic proposal and explain why I think it's not the answer. Kerry says he is committed to balancing the budget, but he has proposed additional spending that some analysts have estimated could cost as much as $226.1 billion annually ($2.261 trillion over ten years). This was stated by George Borjas of Harvard and George Borts of Boston U and 44 other top economists. He promises to end corporate welfare as we know it by implementing the "McCain-Kerry commission on corporate welfare," but he also proposes to provide additional tax credits and subsidies to manufacturers that meet his criteria. I don’t quite understand. What Kerry says seems ideal, but the numbers don’t add up.
On health, Kerry claims that bush is responsible for millions w/out health insurance and the rising health care costs and claims Bush’s plan will result in money going into the pockets of big drug companies. However, the latest studies done by Waterhouse show that the drug companies will likely result in losses for the drug companies. In one debate, Kerry claimed he was for tort reform. My ass. Look at his plan. I don’t think the solution is for the government to take full control in health care. Quality will diminish. The correct response is tort reform and Bush’s plan, unlike Kerry’s, is sufficient. Kerry claims to produce health care for all Americans, but his plan will only cover about half of those without insurance. He is misleading.
I guess I won’t talk about foreign policy b/c you are sick of it, but that is Bush’s strongest point. john, we can both go to a million websites and reiterate the lies/mistakes/misleading statements each said, but i'll watch it on cnn tonight

KYLE: Jay, I'm curious to know what about President Bush is in line with your libertarian ideals?

SAMMY: Jay, you point out only shortcomings of Kerry, but not one good reason for me to vote for Kerry.
Health- Kerry explained that 1% of malpractice suits was to blaim for the heath care roblem. Not a big deal for me. Also, Have you heard of COSE. COSE is a small business grouping to lower small businesses insurance, workers comp and health care. Basically Bush has stolen this idea and made it his Health care platform. Anyone could already do this, so I don't see that a benifit for anyone, but to put everyone at COSE out of a job. Just more job losses for Bushes resume.
Taxes- I know I would benifit from his tax plan. I am a small business owner with my family, and it seems not to affect me at all, but help me, by giving us credits for hiring. Also as a business owner I am taking a paycheck then take a bonus at the end of the year. I'll tell you what, you got to be doing pretty well to make over 200, 000 a year. And if I were making that much go ahead and tax me. I'm middle class, so it benifits me very well. I'll take Kerry's tax plan any day. Cause it is going to be a long time till any of us is going to be making over 200,000 a year.
Bush's strong point is foreign policy. I see it differently. It is Cheny's strong point. Also I disagree with Cheny's foriegn policy.So Kerry still ahs my vote until someone can come up with one good reason to vote fotr Bush. Come on guys. Just one reason, you can do it.

JAY: john, this is ridiculous and i think you know it. i'm not going to sit here and repeat bush's arguments for you. you know them and don't agree. i respect that. i lean towards bush's arguments more and you follow kerry's. i really have nothing else to say

CHUCK: Kerry won. Bush is a joke. They both did their usual performance. I dont have much more to add.
Well, I can add this. I saw Kerry speak tonight at a post-debate rally. I was 10 feet away from him. I shook Kerry's hand and Teresa.....and teresa winked at me....and Kerry pointed at me during his speech. It was great. Kerry was great.
I dont think Bush added or lost any votes tonight. Kerry may add a few votes. We'll see. At this point, the lines are drawn. I think Bush is up a bit, and the question is if he will hold on, or maybe enough "swing" voters decide they feel comfortable w/ Kerry.
I know I would feel more comfortable w/ Kerry. Kerry was the same guy all 3 debates. Bush was: #1) Disinterested and annoyed, #2) Angry, #3) Smiling all the time....kinda creepy.
Anyways, I am excited. I am excited to see where America stands. 4 more years of empty promises and failure, OR do people want a change. I cant believe people want more of the same, but we'll see.
Just to let everyone know (especially a concerned sammartano): Kerry Won last night. There is little doubt. Gallup has a poll showing a romp like the first debate: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/14/snap.poll/index.html
That said, not a huge deal, but the momentum is building. Fewer and fewer people are buying into Jay-style rhetoric that "kerry is so bad, and so inconsistent". Its just the truth. And everyone that wants Bush out of office needs to talk to, as John Kerry said (when i was 10 feet from him) we need to talk to the "thinking people" of America and make sure they support John Kerry on November 2.
Jay is not going to vote for Kerry. So lets focus our energy on other people, especially in Ohio. Ohio literally could come down to 400 votes. And the people on this blog have enough friends, family, and concern to actually determine that type of outcome. So lets forget about Jay, and move on.
KERRY! KERRY! KERRY! KERRY! KERRY! KERRY! KERRY! KERRY! KERRY!
(congratulations to afghanistan. it was a great success, and still far from perfect and long overdue. but it was a sign of progress. i'll give bush some credit, because he is the commander-in-chief presiding over this operation. that said, it took way too long, and more focus in afghanistan could have had these elections over a year ago, and many parts would not ceded to warlords)

BOB: BOR...ING
Kerry quoting the Bible!
Bush talking about the importance of education!
The whole 90 minutes felt stale and forced to me.
I was shocked to read that Kerry was being proclaimed the victor.
In my eyes it was a big, boring tie.
And who picked those damn questions?
I thought last night's debate was about the economy, and yet we had questions about gay marriage, affirmative action and even Iraq!
Whoever chose those questions should be deported.
PS Chuck, I like your idea about giving up on Jay and focusing those who can still be saved.

KYLE: Worst line of the night was Kerry bringin up Cheney's, who happens to be a lesbian, daughter. I covered my face in horror. It was clearly intentional and in bad taste. I'll be curious to see how that plays out over the next couple of days.

SAMMY: I thought the worst line of the night wa swhen Bush told everyone that his wife speaks better english and people understand her better. It wasn't said like that, but it sounded like he was saying I don't speak good english and people can't understand me when I was watching it. I know that is not what he was saying, but I had to rewind it just to check.

DAN: I agree. I think Kyle Rozuk could have talked aboutthe gay issue with more couth than Kerry did. What doyou Dems think, is this Kerry bringing out his truecharacter behind the campaigning facade?

ZELIN: Fellas, because of the time difference, I unfortunately did not get to see the debate, only clips. But, according to your emails I trust Kerry won. But interesting, BBC ran a segment where they interviewed undecided voters. The voters agreed that Kerry had won all 3 debates; however, they indicated that they will like vote for Bush since the just "believe" in him. That is what scares me and often convinces me that Bushy will pull it off. But Chuck, I will do my part and rally all the swing voters in Hong Kong. Is it okay if they don't speaka English?

SAMMY: Thats exactly it. People just are afraid of change I guess. Bush will win the election, and I just don't know why. Alot of people feel that Kerry is the better man but they are going to vote for Bush. Boogles the mind. Well we will see in a couple of weeks which way the american people will sway. Unless we have an electoral college debocle again.

CHUCK: NO MORE NONSENSE ABOUT BUSH WINNING
Kerry is going to win. For real.
And if you dont think so, do your part to change the outcome

MANEY: Bob you should prob. take me off that poll, I have decided I am going to sit this election out too. I will admit I was all about voting 4 the W, but now I am not so sure, but I damn sure not voting for Kerry either. So everyone good luck and let the best man win.

BOB: Kyle, I saw a poll on CNN asking people:
"Do you think Sen. John Kerry went too far when he mentioned VP Dick Cheney's gay daughter in Wednesday's debate?" So far 60% said No.
And besides, what were you worried about?
Undecided voters don't care about gays. Bush proposed a constitutioal amendment to ban gay marriage! Yet these people are still considering giving him their vote! Obviously gay-issues are really, really low on their list. I think Kerry could could have said, "Gays kinda gross me out' and these undecideds wouldn't have much cared. The only people that reacted to the comment are those conservatives who thought they could use it to make Kerry look bad and the lefties that might have thought it was tasteless but would never vote for Bush anyhow.
I don't think it will change anything.
Still, I would love to hear what Cheney's daughter has to say about it.
I wonder who she will vote for when she is all alone in that little booth.

SAMMY: Sorry, I am just a little disheartened that the polls are so close and in my mind their is no desicion. Kerry is the man, but when bush is up in the polls, all be it, not by much, it is hard not to think he is gonna lose. But I have a renewed faith. Maney, has realized the errors of his ways. He has chose that bush is not right for the job. I agree. Although, he is not voting for Kerry, at least he is not voting for Bush. One less vote for Bush is alright with me.
Back on the Kerry bandwagon, Sammartano

KYLE: Bob, I agree that it won't change many votes, but I did think it was in bad taste. You bring up and excellent point about Cheney's daughter and how she will really vote. There are some people who have to keep public support of a candidate or party, but vote differently once in the privacy of the voting booth. The Bush campaign loves to tout polls that show them with overwhelming support from active military voters. I think it will be interesting to see how troops who are serving multiple tours, reservists who have been forced to serve full time, and those kept in the military due to stop loss really vote. I'd imagine in the military that you can either publicly support the Commander in Chief or take a code red.I'll be curious to see if those votes really deliver for Bush.

CHUCK: First, Kerry should not have brought up Cheney's daughter by name.
That said, WHAT A FUCKING JOKE.
By making a big deal about Kerry's brief (and calculated) mention of Lynn Cheney's gayness, they are being huge hypocrites. THE REPUBLICANS ARE USING LYNN CHENEY POLITICALLY. They keep bitching about Kerry bringing her name up.....but why? Because they want to make Kerry look bad....so Cheney/Bush gain politically.
If these assholes cared about there daughter, they would have immediately came out and condemned Kerry's comments (which they did), and THEN said they dont want her to be talked about anymore....but they didnt. They realized that they could use Lynn Cheney's homosexuality as a political tool.
Not only are the Cheney's doing the same thing Kerry did (using Lynn Cheney as a political tool)....but its their fucking daughter.....so its much more sick.
So these people, if they care about their daughter, need to shut the fuck up.

BOB: So I was reading a story from the Associated Press today. It outlines the swing states (Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and New Mexico) and says that...
"Taken together, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania account for 68 of the 99 votes from the tossup states...Whoever wins two of those three wins the White House."
It is really unbelieveable how close this is going to be and how important each Ohio vote really is. I wish that I could be there to encourage or drag reluctant voters to the polls. If every DEM can change one vote, it`ll make a difference. Pick easy targets (not Jay). Good luck guys.
Only 15 days to go.

BEN: First off, Mary Cheney will be voting for her dad and George W Bush. She works for the campaign.....I think that is safe to assume
Second, Chuck what are you talking about they are using her (Its Mary - Lynne is DIcks wife) . Mrs Cheney said that night what she thought and the next day VP Cheney said something....i havent heard him or her say anything else. I havent heard GWB say anything about it (and i may have just missed it, i dont know)
i am glad you say Kerry was wrong to say what he did (both you and kyle). when edwards did it, okay i guess, because cheney was right there, but when kerry did it it just looked stupid
Bush is going to win.

CHUCK: Watch this video clip of Jon Stewart on CNN's Crossfire. It is really funny. He just makes fun of the media. He rips both the republican and democrat (equally).
http://mediamatters.org/items/200410160003

BOB: Can anyone explain how Kerry won all three debates and slipped in the polls? Has the world gone mad?! Are these polls bull? (Does anybody think it was that "Cheney's daughter is a lesbian" stab) PS Did anyone see this? USAToday ran a story today titled: "Most expensive TV campaign ad goes for emotions" The text says: "The most expensive TV ad buy of the presidential campaign shows President Bush consoling a teenage girl whose mother died in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11....The ad features the photo and Ashley and her father talking about Bush. "All he wants to do is make sure I'm safe," Ashley says in the ad. Lynn says in the ad that he saw in Bush "what I want to see in the heart and soul" of a president." It really makes me want to puke. Are you REPs O.K. with Bush exploiting those who died on Sept. 11th to win teary-eyed swing votes?

CHUCK: Why Kerry did not move up: The RIGHT WING Media Bush Lied (or is just a pathetically forgetful person, to the point of moronic) about never saying "I'm not worried about Osama" Kerry made a true, and possibly inappropriate statement about a lesbian. The fucking news ran 2 times more stories about Kerry's TRUTH, then Bush's LIE. What a Joke: http://mediamatters.org/items/200410190001

KYLE: I'm not too concerned about national polls right now. I think it is likely that Bush could win the popular vote and loose the Electoral College. The only polling that is important, in my opinion, are state polls of swing states. Plus, where is our October surprise? We haven't had any major unforseen event yet to change the outcome of this race. Is it coming?

SAMMY: Yes, our October surprise is soon to come. Oh, you ask what is our surprise. Well I'll tell you the Bush campaign team has been hiding this one for a while. We have captured Osama and they are about to release that they have captured him about a week before the election. This will ensure that Bush will be elected for another 4 more years.