#9: Need Some Wood?

THREAD BEGAN: October 9th, 2004
Following the second Presidential Debate...

CHUCK: Absolutely no question Kerry won. But it wasnt it a route like the first debate. Bush performed way better. (3 times better). Kerry performed better (2 times better). So that still leaves a kerry win. Kerry still looked amazing and presidential, again. Bush looked better, but still clearly inferior.

PETE: That's funny...I thought Kerry looked like he'd been sucking on alemon dipped in hydrochloric acid. He also seemed awfullyangry...quite unbecoming for a regularly breathing human being who'smarried so well.

ZELIN: Zazzon, I said that I spoke with soldiers when I was in Korea last year. No American soldiers here, the Chinese Dragons wouldn't really go for that one.

BEN: i think there is some question.......i think bush did very well tonight, and every repub. i have talked to tonight feels the same. i got mad when people tried to say bush won last week - he didnt. i got mad when people tried to say edwards won - he didnt. i can see kerry people saying he won tonight - he had a good performace, but i think bushs was better. this should re-energize the repub. base and i think it will start to show up in the next round of polling. we were really down in spirit - not so now.kerry really seemed to get rattled when bush talked about his senate record. bush needs to do more of that in the 3rd debate, and also suddenyl domestic issues dont look so bad for bush now, espically if "values" issues come up like abortion again

SAMMY: Pete, Great to see you join us.I am drunk, so if this seems a bit under the influence, I am sorry. Pete, You say that you are 150,000 in debt on college loans (for law school). I hope. Under the Bush administration this will all be for not. You know for a fact he is outsourcing jobs. What makes you think your 150,000 dollar education is better than an 8 dollar an hour lawyer from another country. OK Bad example. We Know that can't happen, but for other jobs, like engineering like myself, it sucks. We all know you are smart and deserve the best. But, yes the sky is falling down on you if you live in Cleveland. Their are no jobs here. So, this election should hit home for all of us. If you wanted to stay in REVERELAND, and raise a family, YOUR FUCKED! This is a great place to live. Look at us, we all turned out pretty damn well.150,000!! Your gonna pay that off in 3 years. I hope you do, but for the rest of us. Who aren't making 300,000 a year we have a problem. The deficit is not going to go away in a hurry. I can't wait to see you in 3 years and see if you paid off your education in that time, without the help of your parents. ( Although I hope you do). It will take you years more to pay off that kind of money. Just like it will fro the US. A lot more.Now, for tonight's debate. Bush did an excellent job. He had actual facts to back up his claims. He seemed like he knew what he was talking about. He seemed like a president. This debate was close. Now I know I am biased towards Kerry, but I still believe Kerry Won. The debate on foreign policy is a wash in this round-table, so I will not discuss it. When it comes to domestic policy Kerry won, by a hare. For me, Kerry wins in the abortion and stem cell debate hands down. Kerry made headway in the fiscal policies. Just because Bush lied. Yes, BUSH LIED!. Check my previous posting about Domestic Discretionary Spending. Bush stated again that he has decreased it. He stated that that the Clinton administration was increasing at 15% and he is only increasing at 5%. This is completely wrong. Clinton was increasing at 5% and he is increasing at 25%. Check the white house publications and my old posting. He lied about this once before and was called out on it, with nothing to back it up, but what the white house says. Which is the opposite of Bush.And Pete How have civil liberties been violated. I know this is stupid, but I bought I shirt that says FUCK BUSH, for fun. Guess what I have been flagged by the government. Yep, the patriot act(which I am all for) at its best is probably... OVER WORD LIMIT

CHUCK: Pete, Its fine to think bush won, and to agree w/ his stances. There are arguments to be made, and i just dont agree w/ them. BUT: You are seriously dillusional if you thought Kerry was the angry one. Bush was clearly more angry and aggressive thoughout. Bush fucking intimidated the moderator at one point and was being very wild and angry throughout. There may be question of who one the debate, but there is no question of who acted more presidential. (no question in my mind who won, though)Seriously Pete, you are absolutely out of touch w/ reality if you think Kerry was the angry one. (but to his credit, angry bush was better then bush from the first debate)Tonight, George Bush had another chance to make his case to the American people. Again he failed. Again, he showed that he is out of touch with reality on Iraq. Again, he offered no plan for jobs and no plan for cutting the cost of health care. Again, he pretended that our problems don't exist. Again, he refused to level with the American people. George Bush just doesn't get it, so he can't fix it. (by the way, Bush's health care plan is to cut 1% of the cost off by eliminating frivilous lawsuits....that's his only claim. 1 FUCKING PERCENT. That will get who insured? That will benefit who? And if it does have some good affect, what is the rest of the plan? What is it? Someone answer this! Its outrageous that we act like Bush really cares about average americans problems.)PETE, Breaking News: Keeler Report (10/9): Both (especially Bush) seemed to be yelling into their respective microphones.Now the Keeler Report is not exactly pro-Kerry, but it noted the Bush yelling. So my point is made. Now that does not declare my reasoning for anything other then you not correctly who was more aggressive. (NOTE: keeler report does not claim bush (or kerry) angry, but his noting that Bush yelled more seems like a strong rebuttal to your baseless claim that kerry acted wild, angry and unpresidential)I've been thinking about this more, and its driving me nuts. All Bush did was bash Kerry. How can anyone say that leads to victory. That's all he did. (except for claiming he heard about something on the "internets" and many other ridiculous errors). Seriously. Where was one idea for Iraq? Where was one domestic idea aside from tort reform? Where was any IDEA? Any VISION for a better future? Where? What? Iraq? He is living in fantasy land there. He claims its improving....what a joke.....is there even one other person that agrees with him on that? Its like everyone is giving Bush credit for speaking in full sentences. Its like he is benefiting from sounding near-retarded in the first debate. And how did John Kerry sound? The same as the last debate. A pro. Bush likes to say "you know where I stand." Really? I dont know… OVER WORD LIMIT

DAN: sammartano, where you drunk when you wrote this?

BOB: About the debate,
These swing voters can't decide cause they have a general distrust of Bush and alot of doubts about Kerry. In these debates, Kerry has been clearing up those doubts, while the cloud of distrust continutes to hang over Bush's head...only he's raised his voice!
Everyone is saying the debate was a tie...just wait, the polls will show Kerry taking the lead after the second debate.
Yours truly, "Moderate Disaster" Hewitt
PS Kerry is going to win this election.

SAMMY: If my hangover serves me correctly. YESSSS. Its 7 o clock and still very hung over

BOB: Pete, in regards to Civil Liberties…you just don’t get it, do you?
I think you’re overdue for a little reread of the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution. I encourage you to go and brushup, especially on Amendments 4-8: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
If you do, you’ll notice that half of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights are about the Rights of the Accused…5 out of 10. Our forefathers did this for a reason, and not cause they ‘had something to hide in their black bag.’
The unchecked power that the Patriot Act gave the FBI was unconstitutional, don’t believe me? Read this...(don't just skim it)
Wednesday, Sept 29th CNN reported: NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Part of the Patriot Act, a central plank of the Bush Administration's war on terror, was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge Wednesday. U.S. District Judge Victor Marreo ruled in favor of the American Civil Liberties Union, which challenged the power the FBI has to demand confidential financial records from companies as part of terrorism investigations. The ruling was the latest blow to the Bush administration's anti-terrorism policies. In June, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that terror suspects being held in places like Guantanamo Bay can use the American judicial system to challenge their confinement. That ruling was a defeat for the president's assertion of sweeping powers to hold "enemy combatants" indefinitely after the September 11, 2001, attacks. The ACLU sued the Department of Justice, arguing that part of the Patriot legislation violated the constitution because it authorizes the FBI to force disclosure of sensitive information without adequate safeguards. The judge agreed, stating that the provision "effectively bars or substantially deters any judicial challenge." Under the provision, the FBI did not have to show a judge a compelling need for the records and it did not have to specify any process that would allow a recipient to fight the demand for confidential information.
Thank God the ACLU and others have stood up to protect our Civil Liberties…if they hadn’t, these unconstitutional provisions would still be in place...and more would be on the way.
Sincerely, "Stay out of my black bag" Hewitt

CHUCK: Pete claimed its irrelevant if there were WMD's because he had the capabilities. What a joke. The Duelfer Report (the final chance to justify the war) said: SADAAM POSED A DIMINISHING THREAT. DIMINISH: To become smaller (Webster's Dictionary) Synonyms: Reducing, Weakening, Shrinking. Its fine to think the war was needed for spreading peace, etc (which i disagree with), BUT can we please stop this nonsense about his threat to us. Its bullshit. No doubt.
Kutuchief had a great idea. Anyone want to defend the Bush economy? Job growth has been poor (and well under what Bush promised after the irresponsible tax cuts)
Come on guys, defend. Its a challenge, I know. But "bring it on"
(by the way, 9/11 is not a reason why we only created 90,000 jobs this month when Bush promised 250,000 a month....a figure which he has never met)

SAMMY: OK I'll take the challenge. Wait I can't find any evidence to back up any claim that Bush did a good job with our economy. Chuck I conceed you win. Damn looks like I'll vote for Kerry.

BEN: Has the economy under GWB been all that great in the last 4 years? No. Do I think it would be worse without the tax cuts? Yes. I dont have a whole lot to work with if I want to defend it. The job growth has been disappointing. He will be the first President in 72 years to lose jobs. Lets be honest - his economic record is hard to defend.
The problem with this issue is that for whatever reason, people dont seem to blame Bush as much as the Democrats wish they would - and need them to do. In most polls, Kerry is only slightly ahead on this issue for whatever reason, if he is ahead at all. Right or wrong, people are buying in to what Bush says "inherited a recession, sept. 11, corporate scandals, oil prices" etc. Bush can sit there and say Kerry voted for higher taxes 98 times and he will raise your taxes and thats just the way it is" and he can fight to a draw on the issue. Higher taxes or "roll backs" as Kerry calls it just are not a winner.
People who make 25,000 or 30,000 a year appreciate getting a 400 or $1000 child tax credit or other refunds. that is a pretty damn big deal to those people - and they dont want to lose it. And they know if they vote for Bush they wont. They simply dont blame him, and it makes the Democrats furious. Bush can sit there and say "1.9 million jobs in the last 13 months and not a single month of negative job growth" and they are like "well, thats good enough for me."
Kerry campaign has either A) done a terrible job getting their point across, B) dont believe anything Kerry says he will or wont do, or C) simply dont care that much about the economy and dont blame Bush anyways. I think it is a combination of B and C. It is going to be hard in the last 3 weeks for Kerry to change people minds - especaillty those in WV, MO, AR, and similar states - they care about the economy, but they also care about abortion, their troops and their guns and because of that they are voting for Bush, because they think he has their values - and that is what most "blue state" voters dont get - that "red state" voters vote more on those issues than economy.
keep in mind i am voting for Bush, but it is a tough record to defend.

CHUCK: Ben said something very important. He gives Bush's reasons for a failing economy:
1) Inherited a Recession: Not true. Economy was slowing, but the recession started in Bush's first year.
2) Corporate Scandals: Do I need to explain that Enron was all of Bush's buddies, and Enron was just absolutely devastating, especially to California. And yes there were other scandals. And no, Bush has not done anything to crack down. In fact, corporate oversight is down under Bush.
3) Oil Prices: Do you think that has anything to do w/ the stability (or lack thereof) in Iraq? Do you think our amazing consumption, which republicans refuse to curb w/ just slightly higher emissions standards is having an impact?
Well, we know all this. And Ben explains well about why its not that important to voters. But that is what is sad about this country right now. Sure this country has all the best, but its reached a sad point where there is such apathy, to where voters do not even analyze the root of problems, or even care.
All the voters care about is how Bush can manipulate the word 'nuisance' in the next 3 weeks.

KYLE: I think Ben gave a fair evaluation and I think the answer is A, the Kerry campaign has done a bad job on this argument. I want to make a point about the tax cut working class people got of $1,000 or whatever from Bush. I agree the money means a lot to working families, but the problem is while they recieve a small tax cut from the Federal Government, they end up paying more at the state level. Take Ohio under the leadership of Allstar Republican Governor Bob Taft. In order to pay for Bush offset the cost of tax cuts, all states recieved fewer federal dollars. States don't have the option of running a defecit like Bush does. To make up the difference Ohio had to raise state taxes and cut programs like closing 1 of only 3 state run Mental Health facilities for the retarded, cut funding for higher education resulting in the cost of tuition at every state university in Ohio increasing by at least 9.9% in 2004, and raising the cost of all kinds of basic state services like drivers license fees.
The state has also increased sales taxes to raise the money that used to come from the federal government on almost everything you buy. The beauty of raising money through a sales tax instead of an income tax is that everyone pays the same tax on everyday goods.... and the dreamy result for the rich they keep more of their income through income tax cuts while working class people pay a MUCH higher percent of their income in sales taxes.
I bet working class people would gladly give back or give up thier income tax cut provided to them by the Bush administration if they knew how much more they pay in so many other ways. Man, if I was a working class Republican and found this stuff out, I would take a minute to smoke a cigarette as I begin to realize I have been getting fucked for the past 4 years.